Podaily

🎼Or it was very easy to always say, well, I will never be able to do this because insert skill issue. We're realizing that even if you have the skills at your fingertips, the thing that matters is agency, I don't think agency is very evenly distributed in the world. You a piece of advice for someone that wants to develop this within themselves. I tell this to myself. could you drive notion like it's stolen. One day you wake up and you realize the world is made up by people no smarter than you. It just really awakens you to the idea that you can just change things. You think about your job.years ago, What's most changed. The first 10% of every project are now free. It takes almost no effort to now build the first version of a startup. Taste comes up a lot now. Haste actually means you're able to run a virtual machine in your head, where given an idea, you can predict for a certain in group, whether they're going to like it or not, You just have to do, Res, It's almost like training a model. What do you think matters to building a successful product. All the great products have something tiny that is a superpower one tiny core that is so exceptional.😊🎼Good, one of the biggest pitfalls is if you get into the loop of if I just add one more thing to the product, it will be finally great, that never works. Give this hot take on universal basic income. We already have universal basic income. It's called knowledge work.Today, my guest is Max Shoing. Max is a hard person to describe. He was a product manager at Google. He ran the design team at Harroku. He was a design leader and an engineer at Github under Nat Friedman. He's also twotime founder and is now head of product at notion. He is one of the most successful AI forwardward product leaders out there. And as you'll soon see one of the deepest thinkers on how AI impacts how we build and how we use software. Before we get into it, don't forget to check out Leny's product fast dot com.😊🎼Porn in set of deals available exclusively to Lenny's newsletter subscribers. With that, I bring you Max Shoing.Nextax, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. I am so excited to have you here. I feel like there's this quote I think about when I think about you and you being on this podcast, It comes from the Bible and just paraphrasing the quote is, I was made for such a time as this.I feel like there's this all this talk about roles merging, designers, becoming DMs engineers. Everyone's the same the Ven diagrams coapsing. You've been that for a long time. It's like hard to even describe what you are and what you've done. You've done all the things. So I feel like you have such a unique insight into where things are heading.😊I want to start with just kind of this broad question.What have you seen about where things are going for product teams, for product building as AI becomes more powerful, as we integrate it more into our workflows. and ask you this, because I've heard for so many people at notion that you are the reason that designers are shipping code, Ps or shipping code, You're not just living in the future, You're like pushing the whole team and company to live in the future? And so, So coming back to the question, just like, what are you seeing about where things are going, What will change, What people realize in the next few months, years that you're already seeing.😊Well, first of all, when you said a quote from the Bible, it was.I was very curious where this was going to add.It'sThe first time I've coded the Bible on this podcast, I think I wouldn't take credit for the designers at Notion and PM's at Notion now code. I think that would have probably happened anyways.But I can tell you the origin story of it, which is when I joined notion, we were building a lot of chat interfaces, and we were designing the chat interfaces in Figma.And my, there's this great talk by Brett Victor. Stop drawing dead fish.Which essentially is.I mean, the static image of a chat is basically the dead fish here. You have to feel the AI to some degree. and so.2 designers, myself, just.Put together the worst possible playground you could think of of a small code base that is very LM friendly used the tools that LLm are very good at using. And then we moved all of our prototyping for the specifically the chat interfaces to that. And just understand this playground concept. essentially, this is an idea of people work within this separate kind of area with AI tools versus like their whole notion code base, making it really easy to get started and tryto. Yes, and that was the first version. It sort of aligned.😊With model capabilities at the time, we don't always use maybe at notion. Its sort of the main code base is not always the most agent friendly because iterations and a decade of patterns. And so we optimized for, okay, how can we make this the least scary and most one shotable so that people would just have to overcome this sort of, oh, I the fear of the terminal. But then it just b...（已截断）